Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Edited by: Cpt Branko on 07/09/2009 02:08:39

Originally by: Allen Ramses

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Edited by: Allen Ramses on 06/09/2009 23:39:17

Originally by: AstroPhobic

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I don't know what you're talking about here. Autocannons aren't meant to be blasters. They need to excel in mid range, and increasing falloff does that. Increasing damage straight up pushes them into short range.

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ACs already excel in mid range. Because of the optimal/falloff balance, you can use the highest damage ammo without any effective range loss. And you want to push this further? OK, but you have to promise that nobody will cry about the considerably lower raw DPS ACs get in comparison to blasters, pulses, and torps.

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ACs excel in mid-range?

This is nonsense

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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I wouldn't get within optimal in a tempest unless I had to. It doesn't have enough speed or DPS to survive, which is one of the reasons why I suggested even more falloff and speed/agility. If you're going to run into optimal, the phoon or mega are much better choices.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Edited by: Cpt Branko on 07/09/2009 02:08:39

Originally by: Allen Ramses

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Edited by: Allen Ramses on 06/09/2009 23:39:17

Originally by: AstroPhobic

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I don't know what you're talking about here. Autocannons aren't meant to be blasters. They need to excel in mid range, and increasing falloff does that. Increasing damage straight up pushes them into short range.

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ACs already excel in mid range. Because of the optimal/falloff balance, you can use the highest damage ammo without any effective range loss. And you want to push this further? OK, but you have to promise that nobody will cry about the considerably lower raw DPS ACs get in comparison to blasters, pulses, and torps.

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Originally by: Ecky X

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Originally by: Roland Thorne

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Minmatar AC are supposed to be able to outdistance other races at short-range using falloff - I believe this is your assumption, and the reason for a more agile tempest. Tempest should be fast enough to hold range on a tougher ship and pound it from outside their optimal and non existent falloff. At this point, the faster ship should outlast and win the fight.

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Are you suggesting that pulse lasers should not have 50-90km optimal?

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Yes, but you're talking about 1 on 1s which don't really exist. True it will help it in solo, but that's not the point. It will be an excellent anti-support ship, chasing after battlecruisers and HACs and mauling them with ACs.

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Originally by: kessah

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Anyone else think Astrophobic will get the 1000th reply?

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The tempest is clearly the best battleship.Ö

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Originally by: Allen Ramses

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Apples to rotten oranges.

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Originally by: Allen Ramses

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Originally by: Roland Thorne

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Originally by: Allen Ramses

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Apples to rotten oranges.

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You don't even give a hoot about minmatar

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Who told you that?

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Originally by: Tyler Lowe

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I'm not sure it's the drone bay getting in the way either. I think it's those two launcher slots that CCP keeps taking into account whenever they look at this ship. Everytime someone tries to get the Tempest looked at, and this is not the first time for this, someone from CCP points at the two empty slots, put a couple of missile launchers in there that no one is going to fit except for maybe out of desperation, and calls the ship good.

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Originally by: Tyler Lowe

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I was thinking that you could get rid of the rate of fire bonus on the ships, increase the turret signature resolution by 50%.

This would basically kill tracking on non matar ships, and then replace the RoF bonus with one of two ship bonus:

-7.5% lowered projectile turret signature resolution per ship skill level in the case of pure gunboats

+7.5% target painter effectiveness per ship skill level for the split weapon hulls

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Originally by: Sputnik Tsygan

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I could only be bothered reading the 1st and last pages of this 32 page topic and it seems it's been derailed onto a conversation about projectiles.

The tempest is quite possibly the worst battleship in the game (IMO it is). But with skills, a decent sniper.

However, I'd choose a gank fitted maelstrom over tempest every time.

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Originally by: Caroline Nikon

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Please.. do not forget the tempest..... think of the thousands of players that cray every morning when they open the broser and check test server feedback forum ahnd dev blogs and see no boost for tempest.


Think on their sadness.. try to cope with their emotional stress and have pity of our souls

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Originally by: Nian Banks

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Edited by: Nian Banks on 22/09/2009 06:16:41

Scroll down patch notes... It says.

FIXES

Ships
ò Complete rebalance of the Minmatar line of ships, all ships will be changed to their corresponding Amarr ship class and tier and renamed accordingly.

Skills
ò All Minmatar skills will be removed and players credited with the appropriate ammar skills

Equipment
ò All Minmatar racial equipment and rigs will be removed and replaced with the appropriate ammar equipment.

Race
ò All minmatar pilot racial descriptions will be changed to state they are Amarr slaves.

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Originally by: Seriously Bored

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Ah well. The Phoon armor/shield value flip was in the notes, right? That should count for something.

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Originally by: Spaztick

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Edited by: Spaztick on 23/09/2009 03:32:22
Does the falloff amount negate the DPS advantage?

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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@ Ath: No, this is a large step in the right direction. AC boats that use EMP basically just got a 9% DPS boost. Arty may (gasp) become useful, or at least a hell of a lot more fun.

I too would like to see more falloff (by any virtue) - and I phrased a question out to Nozh in the other thread. The chances of a response is unlikely, but it appears that they are reading. I haven't seen a CCP statement about hit quality in falloff as of... ever, so I wonder what kind of response they would give. Like I said in that thread, a good 30-35% falloff boost is a good "forgive and forget" measure that brings it close to being in line with their intentions, if it was 50% of DPS at optimal + (current) falloff.

Oh and the ammo damage types too. Yes, those.

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Originally by: Tyler Lowe

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Originally by: Spaztick

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As of right now you have widely varying damage modification, tracking, optimal, falloff and rate of fire on projectile weapons, and on top of that you have projectile ammo varied from hybrid and crystals. Standardizing the damage on all projectile ammo is the best thing you can do for modifying the guns themselves because it gives a baseline to work from.

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Spaztick, when you say "standardize" what exactly do you mean?

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Originally by: Seriously Bored

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Edited by: Seriously Bored on 25/09/2009 17:20:37

EDIT: And I'm going to have to send love poems to Iceland for all that they've done for the phoon! \o/

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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That's part of my point: I did use the same ammo - they're boosting close range ammo and nerfing long range ammo (seeing as how it wasn't terribly useful anyway). This means (as I said) that anyone using Artillery for close range work is seeing a pretty huge boost.

A boost that carries on over to Autocannons too.

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Originally by: Seishi Maru

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well would just make it same as hybrids and lasers where t2 short range ammo is crap and frequently ignored.

Fusion SHOULD be top damage with EMP with 80% EM component should be second.

ALL t2 short range ammo for AC, pulse and blasters need a rework. Make them into something different.. or give them a 20-25% damage boost! They are basically useless against anything but capital ganking, so if their role is that short.. give them a HIGH damage

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Originally by: Seriously Bored

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Edited by: Seriously Bored on 28/09/2009 18:30:49

Originally by: Roland Thorne

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I can see your point with fusion, but a dps boost with t2 ammos would be a game breaker. Better to just let barrage be less tracking/more range as far as projectiles go.

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Seishi was talking about Hail, not Barrage. Barrage has a perfect set of +s and -s as is. Key words in the quote were "short range T2 ammo."

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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To be fair I didn't include drones, but still your damage is going to be poor.

One of the reasons I advocate a 35% falloff boost across the board - armor tankers are either going to be forced into shorter ranges to make use of the new ammo changes or will remain exactly as they are with barrage.

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Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia

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...IF it is a meaningful boost, sure. I'd like to give CCP the benefit of the doubt, but with everything and it's brother carrying plates or shield extenders, i think the returns will be meh.

Bottom line (imo) CCP has decided in the past years that all the facets of combat that defined minmatar needed to be removed from pvp. (significant speed advantage and hit and run? meet speed nerf and HP boost).

They followed through on their convictions and, as usual, a crap ton of ships suffered drastically because of it, not to be fixed for years (if ever). The culmination of this across the board stupid-storm resulted in what the Tempest is today.

All other changes and nerfs over the years aside, 2 days screwed minmatar.
-The day they thought multibillion isk ships going to fast required an across the board change to all ships.
-The day CCP decided combat should last longer by increasing all HP across the board

and seriously, WTF do you think you are doing with the fleet pest CCP?
let me see if i can word this properly...

CCP, YOU FAIL

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Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia

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All other changes and nerfs over the years aside, 2 days screwed minmatar.
-The day they thought multibillion isk ships going to fast required an across the board change to all ships.
-The day CCP decided combat should last longer by increasing all HP across the board

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Originally by: Roland Thorne

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I looked at the charts when the speed nerf took place, and the minmatar BS were changed on the same slate the others were. BS in eve are now slow and stately behemoths slugging it out with larger then life weapons - - except it doesn't work with projectiles balance. CCP could have very easily left minmatar BS alone when they made the changes, but they didn't. Personally, I think that would have kept with the style of the race and kept us different from the others.

Btw, I starting talking about BS because we all recognize here in this thread that they are the one minmatar class of ship that is basically not worth developing because of a weapon and ammo unbalance which mainly centers around the large autos and artillery.

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